Lisa Virtue (00:13)

Jasmine, thank you so much for coming. I'm thrilled to have you. ⁓ we first met when you were working at Google, and I was helping software engineers get referred into Google. And then, of course, they still had to prove themselves in the interview process. So helping them figure that out, mostly women, software engineers from the Middle East and places where they didn't have a lot of opportunity. So I know firsthand that you lead with heart and you show up with this heartset that we talk about here at HeartSet Studio. and

But just I'm thrilled to have you. So thank you for coming and spending the time.

Jasmine (00:44)

Thank you for having me, Lisa. It's an honor.

Lisa Virtue (00:46)

So you're based in Switzerland now, but I know your journey has been very global. And I would love for you to share with the audience a little bit about where you've been and how you've come to do the work that you're doing now.

Jasmine (00:56)

Yes, absolutely. so my name is Jasmine. ⁓ I have over 10 years experience in people facing roles. I will start with my journey at Google, which was in Google Dublin. I was helping hire great engineers into our EU headquarters and running boot camps focused on diversity and upskilling for students and also women.

I then moved to Switzerland. I took an opportunity to lead our diversity and inclusion trainings at Google and essentially scale that the specific training was called Precise Language, and which empowered our employees at the time to speak up freely about diversity and inclusion and make sure that their colleagues felt more included.

And I really led with the heart, as you mentioned. I got my passion for learning and it continued on that journey. I moved then into FIFA. I was the sole operator of their L&D function for 900 people, preparing for the World Cup. And then in May 2025, I took some time to travel, still in Switzerland, and I set up Impact Mission, which essentially is focusing on nonprofits.

training and coaching for individuals preparing them for the workforce or helping them through difficult times such as burnout and bore out

Lisa Virtue (02:14)

I love that bore out. I have been there where I was falling asleep for a job that was in all, you know, sense of the word, it was a great opportunity. A hundred percent of my benefits are paid and I was falling asleep at my desk. So I've been in the bore out and the burnout. That's really good.

Jasmine (02:30)

Me too, me too.

Lisa Virtue (02:31)

Yeah. So you've been at these really globally recognized corporations doing very impactful work. And I'm sure it came with really heartfelt moments of pride and seeing your impact, but also I bet there were a lot of challenges. Do you want to go into a little bit of where you saw some of the challenges in the work that you do and where you also saw the impact?

Jasmine (02:53)

Yeah, for sure. And I think they are very different organizations as well, both with a lot of global scope, but different in nature. And I think some of the challenges is really around how the teams are structured. There can be a lot of desire to do great work and sometimes not enough capacity to do that work. So I think in those moments it's really important that

leaders recognize where their teams are at and if they can take something off their plate in order for that person to maybe take a volunteering day or take a mental health day, that they can do that so that teams can really have longevity and don't burn out. And that's where I see some of the challenges now when we're seeing layoffs and AI coming into the picture. There seems to be more pressure to upskill and learn and less on the

doing side maybe for good. So that would be my message for leaders is just to make sure that you're still fitting in that time in people's agenda where they can give back because they ultimately come back to the job much more grateful and they end up staying much longer.

Lisa Virtue (04:03)

Mm, it's so true. Being able to have that impact and that longevity, like you're saying, for your team. I know Google's done some really brilliant research too on like the Aristotle project of how do you build psychological safety within a team and showing that when the leaders show up with some vulnerability and sharing that humanity, the H in heart in heartset.

and showing that they're human as well, like modeling that I'm sure has come up for you too, right? Have you seen that with leaders?

Jasmine (04:31)

Definitely, definitely. I think when there is psychological safety, you're just gonna get more from the team. If that's the only thing that the leader's caring about is productivity, then psychological safety makes so much sense. It makes sense from the human side, from the heart, to ensure that your team feel really like they can open up to you and talk to you. Cause ultimately they're going to stay.

So I I do believe teams that don't have that fundamentally do break down. So when we think about what kind of programs you can bring into the team and maybe even the stages of team development like storming, norming, forming and beforming, psychological safety has to be the key ingredient to ensure that the team thrives and really is productive.

Lisa Virtue (05:16)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, this is one of the reasons I wanted to start this podcast is to talk to leaders that do care or that know that they care deep down, but maybe they're not showing up as their best self. And so they're recognizing that and they're going, gosh, what are some tips? Are other people dealing with this? I know you're also in the AI space and women in AI. So I'd love to have you talk about that too, because there's another tension going on in the workplace, right? Like you were just saying, upskilling is so

prevalent now in people when they are getting laid off, they're they are always asking me, I'm sure you're getting this as well as a coach, what should I upskill with? What should I do while I'm looking for a job to make myself more marketable, for instance? and because of this AI flurry going on in the tech space, I'm curious what you're seeing and hearing as far as the challenges there with the AI part.

Jasmine (06:04)

Yeah, definitely. So I am leading the community and learning and events for women in AI Switzerland. It's a global nonprofit, and as a chapter, we're quite recent and quite new. And what I'm hearing and seeing is a lot of fear, to be honest, that people are going to be replaced by AI. but really I think the challenge is not just to always be

Connecting online. So we have been doing some events online and we're seeing the drop-off rate. It's really important to show up in person, right? For a chapter that's in Switzerland, we can take advantage of the fact that there's many different cities here. We can come together and hear people and discuss and learn. I think that's really what we're missing in this very digital age is connection, like true connection in person.

So some of the things I'm hearing is definitely the fear of being replaced, but also just the loneliness that's going with this ⁓ and the needing to have a space that's safe in person where people are not necessarily listening from your workplace.

Lisa Virtue (07:08)

Yeah. you bring up such a juicy topic because there's all the controversy too about especially women at work. And I'm a mom and I love the flexibility of being able to work on Zoom, but I'm also noticing that I'm traveling more and I'm really prioritizing in-person events when I can because of that. I call it 4D. not even 3D. is like when you're in person with people, there's just so much richness to it and you get to really learn about people so much quicker.

⁓ yeah, so that is a really good point. Even if you're working remote, like how are you making time for those in-person connections and that human connection that's really profound? It's very important, isn't it?

Jasmine (07:46)

It is, it is. And it it definitely has an impact on how we feel. After all, we're much happier when we've connected. There's a lot of research about that. When we make time for in-person connections, it's so important. And like they always say, you know, don't make your network after you've been laid off or after you need it. Like it's so important to be connecting with people all throughout the journey, whether you've just changed jobs, whether you've just transitioned to a different area of work, whether you're

you've moved country, moved city, it's important to do it all the time. And honestly, I have a lot of people who connect with me on LinkedIn and want to meet. And if they're in Zurich, I say let's meet in person and I've made great friends this way. So I think we just always need to remember, I know there's a lot of plates to spin in life, but remember that the connection in person makes so much of a difference.

Lisa Virtue (08:34)

I'm right there with you. And it's really interesting too when we were thinking social media is going to be the death of humanity. And now we throw AI in on top of it. And now people are using AI as their friends and their therapists and their colleagues. And I I'm seeing that a lot too, where there's that, there's a just a technological burnout, right? People are getting like, okay, I'm

I'm getting so swept into this technology and I have to learn it because I will lose my career, my job, I'll get left behind. And then it becomes a different addiction. Are you seeing this with some of the conversation going on with AI?

Jasmine (09:11)

Definitely. I think whenever we as humans are mandated to learn something rather than it coming naturally and being kind of a gift, we tend to resent the process more. So I do think it it is happening ⁓ that people feel very burnt out by the the must and the shoulds and have to. if it's a more natural process where maybe the organization brings in an AI trainer and you learn

How that could apply to you in your job, the what's in it for me, which makes your job slightly easier, rather than having the fear at the back of the head that you might lose your job about AI. I think it's a much more natural progression and it makes it more exciting to learn. So I think this would be my message to leaders is to ensure that the messaging around AI is correct and you're not using fear mongering language like the person

Using AI is going to take your job, not AI, because I hear that quite often too. we are seeing a very difficult world at this time and I think we need to be kind to people and really make them see that we're trying to help them with skills and not just make them fear AI, because that's not going to be the strategy of how we're going to learn and get ahead.

Lisa Virtue (10:22)

Yeah. So I don't know if you saw what Reese Witherspoon posted that was very controversial this week about, hey guys, I on her channel on Instagram, I think it was originally, I'm, I think we need to learn AI. And I was at a book club and most of the women in there are not learning about it or they don't want to. And are you interested in learning about what I'm learning from this AI perspective? And thousands of comments later, most of the women in the comments were like,

This is awful. No, we need to reject it. And what's happening in the workplace is fascinating with the research is that women are being left behind with the use of AI. And a lot of it is that fear, like you're saying, and the resistance. And this was an example this week, just hot off the press of like, ooh, look at that. All these women in these comments very passionate about rejecting it versus, okay, I I should be curious, maybe.

Yeah. Did you see that this week at all? I didn't

Jasmine (11:17)

juicy

Lisa Virtue (11:18)

Yeah,

it's a very juicy little thing. I just came across it last night and I went, ⁓ okay, interesting. just also the environmental impact, and there's now controversy about what's actually true with the environmental impact,

anyway, it's just fascinating how quickly rumor mills take off and then certain demographics might get left behind or get to the point where they are not having the skills that are marketable.

Jasmine (11:42)

Right. And I think you're touching on a very important point about like critical thinking because sometimes ⁓ AI just jumps in and is doing that thinking for you. But we need to also learn how to challenge it because it's not always going to be correct. And in jobs such as like maybe governmental posts or journalism or lawyers, for example, if they're really leaning on AI, sometimes they can be caught off guard if they're not double checking their work. So

it is really key to use it as an assistant, but not it replacing your critical thinking, right?

Lisa Virtue (12:14)

Yep. And every AI founder and expert out there is saying, keep learning philosophy, keep learning anthropology. That is the most important thing. And universities trying to figure out how do we build the critical thinking and not let people just skirt by by using AI to get their grades, right? It's fascinating times we're living in. ⁓ I'm very hopeful person. I think that

At the end of the day, it can help us be more critical thinking because it could free up all the mundane tasks and the memorization we would have to do in school. And I would love to see it help us, yeah, be more human, right? It's it's that contrast of the humanity and the machine and the robot. And it's like, can we as a human race move past all the fear and really understand that our humanity is our competitive edge?

Jasmine (13:02)

Exactly. I totally agree. We'll get there.

Lisa Virtue (13:04)

Yeah.

Yeah, I think so too. I'm I'm hopeful. It's gonna be bumpy. Any transition, right? Any change is very hard for sure. So you're now working. I love that you're working as a career coach and helping people with resumes and job search because you have such a beautiful eye for it with your experience, especially at Google and being able to show behind the scenes of what goes on. Right. So

Love to hear any tips you have about that. A lot of people on the market right now looking for jobs. And then going into also when you have learning and development clients, what are you seeing as far as leaders elevating others and helping them with their personal growth and where you come in into that space? So please share anything that you're working on right now.

Jasmine (13:47)

Yeah, absolutely. and I think that'd start with like maybe a bit of a personal story, but as you mentioned earlier, leading with the heart is so important. And I think if we can do this in our career search, it is going to fundamentally just make us much happier. If you're doing work that really excites you and you feel you're having an impact, a positive change in the world, that's going to drive you every single day. I know we can't always choose that because I do understand the reality.

of this current market, it is very competitive and very, very difficult. So I would say that in my career I had an opportunity before where I took it and maybe didn't think about the values that I have and didn't align it. And you can actually have a burnout just by working in a place where your values don't align. And that's what happened to me. I ultimately had a burnout. I just decided to leave and I would then say for every person that comes to me who's a job seeker,

That we would do a bit of a values exercise to think about, you know, what's important to you in the next place that you go. That you're not just applying to any job and you're having a really critical think about that before you start the search. And then through the search, there's different job boards that really connect you to mission driven organizations, such as 80,000 hours. they're a nonprofit, they're based in London. 80,000 hours is

named because we spend around 80,000 hours in our career in our working lives. So it is a great testament and makes you think wow, that's a lot of time that we actually spend in the working world. So it should be at some point very impactful. So they do a lot of research on positive career trajectories and trying to align people to social impact organizations and they also give advice. So it's 8000hours.org and this is

A great, great organization. There's many others out there, which I can share with you after this podcast. So yeah, I would say start with your values. Maybe work with a coach because they have an objective view and you can think about that. And then build a bank of questions for when you get to the interview stage to assess whether that organization cares about work-life balance, cares about the environment, or whatever those kind of things are important to you.

So that you're picking the right organization and you'll be truly fulfilled. You mentioned to me as well in the second question about learning and development work. At the moment, I'm seeing a lot of leaders who are finding that their employees are quite unmotivated at the moment. I think because they've seen so many of their colleagues be let go, they don't have the headcount to fill their roles. So the person who is working with three people is now doing the job of three people.

And it's very difficult for those people who remain and they maybe have some survivors' guilt. So I think the leaders should think, how do we really ensure that the people that we have working on the team are still happy, still healthy, and they have those opportunities to give back where they can and that there's time to take things off their plate where they can.

Lisa Virtue (16:48)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. So for your work, I know you've been ⁓ before the war broke out in Lebanon and Jordan and doing work there. What kinds of things do leaders come to you and say, like, Jasmine, I need it, I need help with XYZ. What does that XYZ look like for you?

Jasmine (17:06)

Yeah, it could be really well being, talking about like wellbeing sessions. So when I was at FIFA, I w rolled out a global wellbeing platform that we were using. they're called Keen Health, they're amazing. But this was the first conversation that FIFA had had on wellbeing, really. So it was incredible and they ate it up like people wanted all of the career counseling sessions, all of the psychological support. It was really, really impactful. So

I'm seeing a lot of requests for just simply speaking about well being and setting up some infrastructures for train the trainers so that the employment programs or different ⁓ onboarding programs they have in place are really working well. Because they're not necessarily wanting to just work with all different L and D providers and wanting to be really inf efficient and time efficient and cost efficient with the resources that they have.

That's the reality that we see at the moment.

Lisa Virtue (18:02)

Mm-hmm. That's beautiful. That's another one of those situations when you're elevating others, you're recognizing their humanity. And it might feel like a large lift, but really it's pretty simple. Like humans need certain things, but beyond that, we're very autonomous and we can take care of ourselves, right? But being given that opportunity, and I think the lens of a leader cares about you and wants you to think about yourself as well.

Gosh, so much power in that.

Jasmine (18:30)

Yes, exactly. We had something very simple. when I worked at Google that a leader implemented into our team, it was called one simple thing. One thing in the week that you wanted to do, an hour that you put into your calendar that you could spend in whatever way you wanted. So for example, some people left early on a certain day of the week, other times people did an extra

long lunch or they went and got an appointment and it was really nice. You would just simply put that in your calendar. The team had visibility and then say, okay, that person's going to spend that hour doing something that they really enjoy. And this worked really well. It's very small and but it could be just thinking about how that applies to your workplace and what you could do to ensure that your team has the bandwidth to work on themselves and also just give it a bit more.

Lisa Virtue (19:17)

Mm, I love that. Just giving them permission. I I was at a a work dinner last night with alumni colleagues of mine, and ⁓ it was it came up that a few of them had been at the same organization at one point, big global organization here in Oregon. And they were saying, Well, I was asking, are you hybrid? Are you in person? What does that look like? And they would said, you know, we're not supposed to have Friday meetings, but then nobody can fit in the meetings the other days. And so then

The we pack in on Fridays and then the leaders don't want to leave because they don't want to be the first to leave. So they're modeling staying longer, and then their assistants stay longer. And then that it just keeps trickling down. Right. And so that modeling as a leader and giving permission for your employees, again, it it's a simple thing, but it feels so heavy. And then cultures are created where they're like, in theory, we're supposed to not have meetings on Fridays. And one of them said,

And next Friday I have a five hour workshop. It's like, wow, that's schedule creep right there because the culture just kept pushing things and not not giving permission, not allowing for people to take that time.

Jasmine (20:24)

It's interesting, as an employee, if you wanted to push back on that and try and, you know, be that one person, the pioneer to say, sorry, my Friday is sacred. You know, is that gonna go down well or not? In some places it doesn't. So yeah, I'd love to hear your thoughts on that. Like how yeah if you were that employee, like how do you say that this is my time and sorry, I don't do meetings on Fridays because this is the time that I catch up on my work.

Lisa Virtue (20:48)

Yeah.

I think this is really where that burden falls a lot on the leader, right? I had a team myself where the it was coaches, athletic coaches that were reporting to me and they felt like they had to be on 24/7 during the season and be responsive to parents every weekend day, even if they didn't have tournaments or meets. And I was modeling like, I want you guys to shut down. I want you to have boundaries. It was really boundaries, was what I was modeling.

And one of the coaches I promoted to a head coach position, she was like, but I don't think I can. And I said, Well, who's writing your review? Who's the one holding you accountable? It's not the parents. If they come and complain to me that they breached your boundary, what do you think I'll say? I'm gonna back you up, right? And so it became me modeling it, but then also being the one to encourage it and say, I know how much you work. I I want you to unplug. I want you to shut off.

And I then I was like, then I had to get to the point of then I will review you that you don't have strong boundaries. I was like, I made it the opposite, right? So ⁓ they still they actually performed better once they had strong boundaries because they were refreshed and they were able to communicate more effectively. Parents totally understood it for those athletes and the athletes themselves. They said they would say, Okay, I'm going to be unplugged. And it was really hard for people. I'm going to be unplugged on this weekend.

I'm not going to check my messages until Monday. And they put out of office so that people knew. And nothing burnt down, nothing bad happened, but it was just the act of doing it. And I think it was that permission part. That's my thoughts on it is starting from the top and modeling it and giving permission and saying, I'm going to hold you to this. I've had bosses too where they modeled it and they also would incentivize people. Like if you actually unplug and you don't check your email.

For three days in a row on your PTO, then I will give you a $500 bonus. So it's right. It's fascinating tactics that are out there, but the leader needs to believe that that is a healthy way for people to operate is to have those breaks and have those boundaries. And if a leader doesn't believe it and embody it, that's when it gets hard for the team to do so, doesn't it?

Jasmine (22:56)

does and they were very lucky to have you. And I've definitely seen both sides of the coin. I've had managers that have said, We're not saving lives. We work in recruitment. Take your time. And that was just so enabling. I was like, okay, like I'm gonna work as hard as I can, but also take the time off that I need so that I can come back refreshed and productive. And I've also been pulled aside when my job was very much in training and told I wasn't online on the weekend and therefore

I needed to ensure that I was always online. And being me, I would ask, why though? We don't have trainings on the weekend. Why do I need to be online? and told because that's what you should be doing, and people need to be seeing you online for no real reason. And that's when I think burnout creeps in because you are just doing things for the sake of doing. So, as you said, it's so important that the leader models that flexibility.

shows how to set boundaries and really believes in that because then otherwise the employees are going to take on the bad habits and they're not going to know how to regulate and they're always going to feel like they're chasing their tail. So yeah, I love that you did that.

Lisa Virtue (24:04)

Well, and you make such a good point that it's appropriate times too, right? there needs to be a justification. There needs to be a why. Like back to my experience with these coaches, there were weekends where they had to be on. They're staying in hotels with families that were competing and they're at meets from 8 a.m. to 8 p.m. Like they were working these big stretches. And I'm sure with you too, with learning development and even recruitment, there's probably deadlines and times that you really had to stretch your schedule.

So being able to flex on times when there was no reason, like you said, why am I needing to be online? This doesn't, ⁓ should the should word. so this being transparent as a leader and being really clear with expectations, I think is really important too. That goes hand in hand with it's not just, just always unplug. It's hey, let's be really clear and upfront and like communicate together. When is it appropriate?

And when are the times that you're gonna need to stretch? There's a reason we're salaried in these certain roles, right? Because some weeks you stretch more and other weeks you can back off. And I think it don't just have them fly and go, go, go, go, go, go every single week, because that to your point, there's that's the burnout. If you're always expected to be on, no one can manage that forever.

Jasmine (25:20)

No, definitely not.

Lisa Virtue (25:22)

Jasmine, I think that everything you're doing is so impactful for people around the world. I know you're in Switzerland and mostly European, but ⁓ here I am in Oregon on the other side of the sea and the country. And I just really appreciate everything you're doing and how you continually show up consistently with your heart and you're helping so many people. So thank you for your service and for all your work.

Jasmine (25:44)

Thank you, Lisa. Such a pleasure.

Lisa Virtue (25:46)

Same. Now how can people get a hold of you?

Jasmine (25:49)

Well, I'm on LinkedIn. My name is Jasmine Fitzpatrick. I'm also reachable on Impact Mission. If you search me, you'll find me there and people can book a coaching session with me or if you want to discuss our learning and development services, I'm also available. So yeah, just please reach out. I'm a very friendly face and I love to chat with people and see how I can help solve your problems.

Lisa Virtue (26:12)

I love it. And sometimes you have events that you post on LinkedIn as well, right? For job seekers and such. Beautiful. Yeah. So I'll encourage people to go follow you. And that'll all be in the show notes, of course. Amazing. Thank you so much for your time. I'll talk to you soon.

Jasmine (26:16)

Exactly, exactly.

Thank you.

Lisa.