Transcript

Lisa Virtue [00:00:00]:

Welcome, Maryanne. It's so nice to have you today. And I would love to just have you get started by introducing yourself and talking about the work that you currently do.

Maryanne Katsidis [00:00:10]:

Thanks so much for having me on the show today, Lisa. I've been so excited to chat to you. Well, I work with CEOs to diagnose and resolve the internal pressure and patterns that shape how they lead and therefore how their culture, their trust, and their, their decision making actually functions. Most leadership work focuses on behaviors, emotions, or systems, but I'll work on the energetic architecture. Those things and those outcomes depend on. So the work that I do is quiet and it's private, but the impact is structural.

Lisa Virtue [00:00:49]:

I love it. And we've talked together about intuition, energy. One thing I wanted to introduce this segment about too, is that, you know, leaders, when they start fresh, like junior leaders typically do that fake it till you make it concept, right? Just get moving, start doing it, set your vision, get people on board, and then it hits a point where it doesn't work anymore. Do you see this in your work too?

Maryanne Katsidis [00:01:15]:

Absolutely. And a lot of the frameworks and the coaching that that's currently available, some of it has been around for a long time. So it's sort of setting things up to come to that point naturally anyway. What is especially important is recognizing why the limitations are there. So it, for me, in the work that I do, it's very much about getting down to the root. So my background is in kinesiology, and so it's about what is your subconscious saying versus what your conscious is saying. So it might be that, you know, as entrepreneurs, for example, you might really want to succeed and say, I really want to, you know, speak on stage, for example. But if your subconscious and your nervous system isn't prepared already or stabilized to deal with that, you're going to keep sabotaging.

Maryanne Katsidis [00:02:12]:

And it happens in really subtle ways. And a lot of the time people don't know when they've hit their capacity. They just know something isn't right, something feels off. And so this work is very much getting down to getting to the bottom of what's, what's creating this in the first place. So then any coaching, any other frameworks can actually connect on a much deeper level and actually support the person who's having the breakthrough. But often we don't really know we've sort of hit that point until everything starts to feel too hard.

Lisa Virtue [00:02:46]:

Right. I would love to talk to you about symptoms in a second of where you see people come to you. At what point before I do that. I wanted to mention my experience with this too. And the word burnout, people use it kind of just as an explanation. But like you're saying, a lot of times people don't know where it's coming from. And that nervous system work, it's so great to see a lot of research behind it now that it's like if your vagus nerve is off, then everything's gonna feel inauthent. You're not going to be able to connect with others in a meaningful way that you need to.

Lisa Virtue [00:03:18]:

Which is why you and I both use the word heart in our frameworks and work we do with our clients is, you know, being heart led. And the heart set that I talk about at heartset Studio, there's something that is not in the workbooks for CEOs, right? It's not about strategy, it's not about your KPIs and your data points. It's really about how are you intrinsically creating that self concept and showing up for others, but in a way that is true to you. And it's also balanced, even physiologically, right down to the energy like you're talking about. And that is something that I. Has not been researched very much. But with the work that you do with your clients, can you tell me a little bit more about like, where do you see those symptoms? What are their pain points when they come to you? What are they experiencing?

Maryanne Katsidis [00:04:06]:

Yeah, absolutely. So my work is very much on the unspoken work. What, what can't be seen but is felt. And it is deep work. And so it's a, it's a combination of a few different skill sets that I've pulled together to be able to create a assessment and, and navigate with the client that I'm working with. But some of the symptoms, like you said, burnout, so they're very, very tired. Exhaustion is another big one can come out in, in some of the other symptoms, like depression, anxiety, there's some of the other basic ones, but then there are other ones that are subtle. So when you feel yourself bracing for anyone who's been in an environment that doesn't feel so great, where you can predict things aren't going to go well, or you're.

Maryanne Katsidis [00:04:58]:

You're waiting for someone to attack you, your body does a very quite subtle movement where it just holds. And sometimes you know that you're doing, and sometimes it's so. You're so used to it, you're so used to being in that pattern that you don't even realize how that's actually stopping your expression. That's stopping you being bold. That's stopping you speaking up and speaking out. It's stopping you confronting situations. So in organizations, a CEO, for example, or a, or a leader might know that their team are saying the words, yes, yeah, you know, we agree. We absolutely, we're on board.

Maryanne Katsidis [00:05:39]:

Sure. This, you know, new culture program sounds fantastic, but underneath they can feel that they're tense. Right. So that, that, those, those, those unspoken dynamics is, is like, is like another subtle cue as to what is going on. And so some of the other symptoms is include procrastination and numbing. So the most common one for all of us is social media. We, you know, we, you know that whole doom scrolling. So some CEOs might do that, but they numb in different ways.

Maryanne Katsidis [00:06:11]:

So it might be pushing themselves to keep overachieving so they're running themselves ragged. It might be that they're exercising like maniacs. And you can see, you know, very successful people really pride themselves on their athletic nature. So sometimes they're pushing themselves into burnout through that, but they're not realizing the cause of it is some of this, you know, some of these other insecurities, some of the trauma that is, is left unresolved. So it, it's coming out depending on the CEO and everyone is different. There's some of the natural things that start to happen beyond just the main burnout signal. Burnout is really like the last on the list. These are all the things that happen for a long period of time to get to burnout.

Maryanne Katsidis [00:06:57]:

Yeah.

Lisa Virtue [00:06:58]:

I talk to a lot of professionals that just say things like, I used to love this work, I used to be passionate about. I used to. And now I don't know what I should do next. I don't know why it's so bad. Or there's a blame. Right. It's other people that it's because of that new leader or it's because, you know, I've definitely been there myself being in environments where it was like, oh, this environment is not the right fit for me. But your work has to do a lot with the people that are carrying the weight of the organization too.

Lisa Virtue [00:07:30]:

Right. It's, it's not necessarily that middle management. It's more like the visionary, the founder or the CEO, the person that a lot of people in the world, in society think, well, what problems do they have? They get to set the strategy, they just set the direction. Like why are they having any problems? We're the ones who have problems because we don't have that control. Right. Could you speak a Little bit more about that control, burden and where that enters the space.

Maryanne Katsidis [00:07:55]:

Yes. So I believe that every organization has an energetic structure. So the spine of the organization is energetic and the CEO is the energy that stabilizes the entire organization. So if the CEO is not in harmony in their leadership and within themselves, the actions, the direction, the motivation, stability starts to descend into elements of chaos. So what happens then is their senior leadership team or executive team start pleasing the CEO so they don't feel like their head's on the chopping block. They are bracing for reprimand. Right. And so it goes down and down and down and down all through the organization.

Maryanne Katsidis [00:08:45]:

And again, sometimes it's really subtle because people, people don't typically don't want to say no. They don't want to, especially depending on your circumstances, they don't want to confront things. They don't want to say, I don't think this is right. Because they're scared of being left out or again, being, you know, reprimanded. It might be their performance managed or whatever it is, or they're outcast because they're not just playing along and playing the game. And so over time, it is the environment becomes a kill or be killed situation. And even though everyone knows that it's toxic, no one knows how to break out of that cycle. And it's unfortunate.

Maryanne Katsidis [00:09:25]:

And like you said, you've been in those circumstances. I definitely have. And even if you're a really great employee with the best of intentions who really wants to succeed personally and you want the organization to succeed, if you have managers who are insecure, who are wanting to cover their butt, who are wanting to be the ones that look good and not you, you're going to get squashed. And so what's happening is really great. People in the organization are being diluted and disappointed. And then you've got other, other people in the organization who are encouraging chaos, creating, who are encouraging dysfunction. And so some of that looks like, you know, gossiping. It might look like sabotaging competitiveness, jealousy, all of those things start to bubble up.

Maryanne Katsidis [00:10:21]:

Now, as humans, we have our own personal life experience. And depending on your circumstances, depending on what has happened to you in your life, in your childhood, those experiences in the workplace start to trigger up your old junk. Whether you like it or not, you get triggered up. And so for a CEO specifically, if they have got trauma that's unhealed or unresolved, some of which they may have thought that they've dealt with, they don't know that they're communicating In a way that is causing this disruption. Some of them absolutely do. And they're not working in a high level of integrity, but they are also getting bombarded by the board. So in really big organizations, you've got CEOs that not only answer to the government, they answer to the board. And some of those relationships can be incredibly dysfunctional.

Maryanne Katsidis [00:11:15]:

So if that person, that CEO, has had any kind of trauma, imagine what those dynamics would feel like. And so naturally, they're bracing, they're holding that tension, and then it's being filtered down and it's being mimicked because we want to. When we're, you know, if you're working for somebody else, even yourself, you. You are needing to live and survive. So it activates our survival fight flight mode by. I'll just go along with this. I'll just, I'll just get this job done. I'll just take this on.

Maryanne Katsidis [00:11:46]:

I'll just say yes this time. But underneath, you're starting to get more heavy on the inside. You're starting to feel the weight of all of those compromises. And over time, energy drops, inspiration drops, creativity drops. People are wanting to do just the bare minimum, even though they feel sick that there is a part of them that wants to give more, wants to contribute more. But it's a conflict. It's a conflict of I'm not going to be heard, I'm not going. This is not going to be received well, I can't say that.

Maryanne Katsidis [00:12:22]:

I can't speak out. And so everything sort of just goes into the wash. And the, the potency of what could be a really great culture dilutes. And, and in a lot of, in a lot of cases becomes highly, highly dysfunctional.

Lisa Virtue [00:12:37]:

Yeah, and you're talking about energy too. And that energy that can shift into a very uncomfortable place and disconnect. Like, I'm thinking of harmonies and choirs and when people are off tune, how that affects everyone and trying to get in attunement. It takes work, it takes conversation, it takes people being aware of it and reaching out to people like you of like, how can we do this in a way that still achieves their goals? Because we have a business to run. You can't have, can't have a business without those margins. You gotta, you gotta be profiting to keep that business going. And like you were saying, it puts so much pressure on people, especially in the midst of global layoffs and AI feeling like a challenge for people's jobs. And like this pressure gets more and more.

Lisa Virtue [00:13:25]:

You definitely see people bring their past trauma their past experiences and also that just this fear that they're having when they're at home, when they are doing the doom scroll, when they're watching the news. And so then it all feeds into that. Right. So that their, their alignment and their energy is already disconnected from self when they show up to do work with other people.

Maryanne Katsidis [00:13:47]:

Absolutely. And again, it is often really subtle. People don't even realize this is what they're doing. They don't realize that they're. Then they're becoming more numb as time goes on. And so it becomes even harder to connect with the people around you because you're immediately disconnected from yourself. Most people don't want to feel their feelings. As a society, feeling our emotions is painful.

Maryanne Katsidis [00:14:14]:

We've even got movies that have come out where we're teaching kids about all the different emotions. If you've seen the movie Inside out that was actually made for adults, I know it's positioned at kids, but it's not especially, especially Inside out too, where they talk about anxiety, that is absolutely for adults. And if you haven't seen it, I highly recommend that you do. It is, it is hard to accept our feelings. When, you know, when you look at the generations, I'm 49, so my generation and up, they weren't allowed to feel their feelings. It is embedded there. You weren't allowed to be upset, you weren't allowed to be mad, you weren't allowed to be sad. You know, I remember, you know, one of my family members saying, I'll give you something to be sad about when I was sad.

Lisa Virtue [00:15:07]:

Yeah.

Maryanne Katsidis [00:15:08]:

Which is crazy. You know, that's not what, that's not what parenting is now. But these are the, the experiences that leaders now have had. And so when you're in circumstances where you feel like you're being attacked, where you've got, you know, hundreds of employees watching you and, and you know, the community watching you, the government watching you, the board watching you. That's an incredible pressure to carry and it is, it is not for the faint hearted. But we can transform and change how the body is reacting in different circumstances. We can support the nervous system, we can allow for these old programs to release so the body knows. This is not what's happening to me now.

Maryanne Katsidis [00:15:56]:

This is something that has happened. I can acknowledge it, I can look at it, I can see it, I can feel what I was feeling then, that's fine. But that's not what's active. So you're not reacting, you're just in acknowledgement. Okay, yeah, I see, I see. That. But to feel feelings, to be still with yourself in that way takes courage. It takes a lot of practice.

Maryanne Katsidis [00:16:20]:

It's not, I'll just try this for a couple of hours and you know, everything's going to be resolved. No, it is a discipline that comes every minute of every day, and different experiences will challenge you to see where the gaps are. And that's what I really love. And that's why I work so intimately with the CEOs, because it is when we. You start this work, the universe, you know, God, whoever you believe in, will show you exactly where. Where all the gaps are. And then it's not pleasant. But you need someone who's supporting you, who can help you integrate, because that's the really big piece.

Maryanne Katsidis [00:16:57]:

You can know a lot of things. You can intellectually know, okay, that was a traumatic experience that I had. Or I understand this is really bothering me, but if you don't get to the heart of where that's sitting for you in your nervous system and in your subconscious, you're going to stay stuck. It's going to keep happening, and you'll keep even. If you and I went through this stage before I started any of this work, but I would cut people off, I'd be like, right, well, that's it. You know, they no longer exist. But then it would pop up in a different. In another person.

Maryanne Katsidis [00:17:29]:

In another person. Until I started to learn the lesson and until I was still with it. Now, in organizations, what no one is talking about and why this work exists is even when an employee leaves an organization, their energetic imprint still remains. So it's not just the energy of the people currently there. It's the people who've been there before. It's the people who've witnessed all the things that have happened before. And so the resolution around culture and transformation has to be deeper so that the other frameworks, the other programs can actually land clearly. Otherwise, it's just.

Maryanne Katsidis [00:18:13]:

To me, it's just band aiding. This is where we've got to now as a society. And I feel really grateful that I'm leading the way with this. This is the first of its kind. I'm incredibly grateful. But it's energetic architecture. That's. That's what I do.

Maryanne Katsidis [00:18:27]:

And so it is with the CEO, but it's also with everyone else in the organization too.

Lisa Virtue [00:18:33]:

That's great. Yeah, you definitely need the person on top to believe in it so that there's support right throughout that spine. Like you were saying for sure. A few things that you. I would love to respond to one would be around this concept of you need to. First of all, it's good news. You're not alone. There's, there's help, there's ways to go about this, what you were talking about with all these other frameworks, even communication.

Lisa Virtue [00:18:57]:

In a lot of my podcast episodes, we talk about like ways to communicate how to say things to others. And people can pick up on it when it's not authentic or it's not coming from a place of that energy and that alignment of, you know that like I say that heart set or it's coming from your heart led place that cares and also understands what other people need. So it's one thing to get these tips. It's another if you're burnt out, you're done. You've got this trauma popping up, this energy that is not aligning the culture in the way that you and everyone else needs. It's going to fall flat and it's, none of it's going to work. So right there with you, okay?

Maryanne Katsidis [00:19:37]:

Absolutely. And just before we move on. In organizations, everyone knows how to play the game. They've been taught that they've had good training because they've been in fight flight mode. So when a program around communication comes out or you know what your leadership style is, all of the people in the organization, especially the managers, know how to put on a mask and say all the right things. That is very easy to do. If you have been in survival mode for a long period of time, you've learned how to do that. So then the teams underneath all of that know that that person is masking and that they're not going to change.

Maryanne Katsidis [00:20:18]:

And so they get disappointed again and trust gets broken again and anger builds and fest is even more so than it did before. So it's doing more harm than good in those circumstances. And I just think that's a really important point to make because it's, and this is why I, you know, band aiding is actually quite a gentle word for what is happening. But it's actually adding to the dysfunction Every time you bring someone in and you're not addressing what is happening at the root because it's too, it feels too hard or you're worried that someone's going to leave or you're going, you know, with all the, the policies and the reforms around how you treat staff and all of that, the employees are more protected than the, the organization. So it is a fine line and it's quite nuanced, but it is perpetuating this cycle of dysfunction and it's not

Lisa Virtue [00:21:13]:

very nice definition of culture. Right. Even when the bodies change, the culture remains. And yeah, I've seen that firsthand myself. And there's so many times that leaders will be confronted or someone will try to bring something up and if they're leading just with their head and the logical standpoint, they'll be, well, so and so said this to you, right? X, Y, Z. And so that's, that's what it is. And the person's like, yes, and it doesn't feel right. And it's really hard as employees and mid level managers to bring that up and to have that conversation.

Lisa Virtue [00:21:49]:

So for leaders to be in tune with when people are saying the right things, but it's not landing. Okay, that's another sign and symptom, right, of like there's something off. And let's get to the root of it and figure this out.

Maryanne Katsidis [00:22:02]:

Yeah, absolutely. Because it's in the side glances, it's in the, I'll just take, I'll just go to the bathroom and text my friend in the workplace and say, you know, A, B, C and D. Wasn't that horrible? But it is, it's in those, it's in the micro expression. Expression. It's in the micro reactions that tells a lot. But people aren't paying attention because they don't want to feel it. It's easier just to convince yourself that they said it was fine, it's gotta be fine and it has to be fine. Whereas I'm saying why not just say I feel like you're saying yes, but you're not.

Maryanne Katsidis [00:22:38]:

But that's a hard thing to do if you're carrying your own energetic limitations around. That, that, that, that is a very challenging conversation to have. We some most, you know, in when you look at, on a personal level, some people won't even do that with their partner or with their family or their friends, for crying out loud, let alone people at work where your finances are attached, your, your literal survival is attached, they won't do that. They won't risk it. And so because there's no safety there, people tend to avoid it. And that's understandable. But I'm, you know, I'm all about, let's create some safety around bringing out the truth. And with my experience and my intuition and all of the other work that I've done, I know where all of these things hide and there is literally nowhere to hide.

Maryanne Katsidis [00:23:32]:

And I kind of like, I can, I kind of come in energetically with a spotlight and say, hey, look at this. You know, and I mirror everything back, and at the beginning, it's a little bit uncomfortable, but it's always done with compassion and sensitivity because everyone is on the receiving end of their own journey and people are not innately evil. There are things that, you know are dysfunctional. There are things that happen that set you up for that. But until you put a fork in the road and say, okay, I'm ready to be still with this, it's going to perpetuate. And as you know, when you look at the world, this is how we've got to this point. It is chaos everywhere. For a little while there, you know, I'm in Australia, you're in America.

Maryanne Katsidis [00:24:13]:

It felt sort of like America was kind of unraveling and Australia was not too bad. But we are unraveling so badly here, like, minute by me. But that's not a bad thing. When you, when you look at this, we are moving as a society and as a world where we're going to have to deal with what we've been ignoring, where we're out of integrity, where there are lies and manipulation, where we're operating not for the highest good of all. We are being forced to do that. And 2026 is the year for that. And I'm especially excited because, you know, this work has sort of been a bit of a slow burn because it's new and it's, you know, I'm sort of leading the revolution of this. But by the end of 2026, this will be like a.

Maryanne Katsidis [00:25:02]:

Like a normal conversation. It'll be. I hope that it is just the norm. But again, the world where, you know, as we're sort of things are unfolding, where everyone is being encouraged to face. We're out of alignment for sure.

Lisa Virtue [00:25:17]:

And people crave community. They don't know how to behave in community anymore. That's fascinating, too. So when leaders come to you, I would love to hear a story, by the way, if you have like a client success story that you want to talk through. When a leader recognizes this and they go, okay, I love what Marianne's saying. And I think there is something energetically going on. I see the signs and the symptoms. Where can that lead them? What does it look like when they come on the other side of that?

Maryanne Katsidis [00:25:44]:

Yeah. So I worked with a CEO who was highly respected on paper, really strong and confident, really clear with strategy, and even solid with the way that they were operating the business. So the financials were strong as well. But internally, the organization had constant turnover at a senior level. And that. That really Is a, when you, when you're seeing it at that level, there is, it needs to be acknowledged. Because that senior level, if they're not stable, everything underneath that is quickly becomes undone. So when we slowed things down, it became clear that they were leading from control, not coherence.

Maryanne Katsidis [00:26:27]:

It was their nervous system that was in a constant threat response. So every decision was about risk mitigation rather than trust. But we didn't change the work strategy. Like I worked on recalibrating what was going on that was creating the pressure. So it became about softening their communication style, slowing down on the way meetings were being run, making decisions from a grounded, cleaner, clearer space. So that within months, senior leaders stopped leading. Because I didn't feel the threat, they didn't feel the intensity of running a mile a minute or the panic. Right.

Maryanne Katsidis [00:27:10]:

So it became very stable. And it wasn't because they were given more money or new incentives, but because they felt that the environment finally felt safe for them to stay. And what they were responding to was the CEO's internal state. And again, for me, it's not about fixing behavior, it's about fixing the energy that is causing the disruption.

Lisa Virtue [00:27:36]:

So you saw that the turnover was alleviated at that senior level and people felt a safer environment.

Maryanne Katsidis [00:27:44]:

Yes, the retention in workplaces even still now is incredibly high and sorry, attrition is incredibly high. So retaining staff is incredibly, is, is important for a number of factors, not just financially, but so the organization isn't disrupted when they, when people are seeing people leaving continuously creates a, again, another form of distrust, another form of anxiety. And in a lot of cases, when someone leaves their responsibilities fall on someone else. And sometimes, you know, some, some people in organizations are doing two or three people's jobs rather than just their own. But that's not how things started. Again, trust has been broken in a number of different ways. That requires some time to repair as well.

Lisa Virtue [00:28:36]:

You know, as we talk about culture too, I'm thinking about how people learn the behavior based on, you know. Well, first of all, 99% of people show up to work. Probably 99.9% of people show up to work to do a good job. Right. I think you and I probably agree on that, that we're very hopeful and open minded to the fact that we give people the benefit of the doubt. And when they show up and they realize through osmosis and behaviors that they're observing that the culture requires certain things of them, then that's how they feel like they show up doing a good job based on that. Culture. And so a good employee can look like they're part of this maybe toxic, whatever kind of workplace you want to call it, dysfunctional family, these kinds of environments, they end up being.

Lisa Virtue [00:29:28]:

So being able to shift that and kind of retrain people, retrain the culture, I think you, you're saying too, you've seen that happen and people can shift their behavior even just from that alignment in some cases.

Maryanne Katsidis [00:29:43]:

Absolutely. You know, energy is mimicked so the environment you're in will, will encourage a behavior. So if the environment is calm and it's trusting and it's collaborative and it's safe, then absolutely everyone's guards starts to drop. There becomes an openness. Everyone starts to want to take accountability. Everyone wants to contribute and be responsible. But on the flip side, if that's not the energy and that's not the environment, it is disruptive in a lot of different ways. And it's disruptive on their customers and their clients.

Maryanne Katsidis [00:30:20]:

The people that they're, they're being of service to are being disrupted. And we've got a airline here in Australia where they're highly profitable, very large organization, one of the largest in Australia. They, they weren't wanting to pay an increase to their engineers, were in charge of these big aircrafts for safety. They didn't want to increase from, I think it was 3 to 5%. And. And so they went on strike. You've got the board who are making hundreds, if not millions of dollars, who are just there advising. But the people who are creating safety for customers are not being remunerated properly, so they go on strike.

Maryanne Katsidis [00:31:09]:

So that's disruptive to clients and their customers because everyone's having the change flights and postpone and reorganize their lives. But what about the other people in the organization who are having to take those irate phone calls from everyone who can't fly? What about the people that work around that who are not able to do their jobs properly because of that one decision, because of that conflict? And like any dysfunctional relationship, there's a secondary benefit to not changing. So some organizations, and this is, this is generally the large ones that are causing disruption, you would have a lot of those in America probably can name some there. Whilst they say they want to contribute positively, they don't really want to make any changes because that means that they might have to reduce the amount of profits they're making personally. It might mean the board has to get a lower salary and the CEO has to get a lower salary so the rest of the organization are paid more abundantly so they don't want to do that. And that, that again, that's a dysfunction that needs to be broken. And so the, some of these conversations that I have with CEOs even before starting, there has to be a willingness to transform. Things have to be pretty rock bottom for them to want to do this work.

Maryanne Katsidis [00:32:32]:

Otherwise, what's the incentive? There are lots of really great CEOs and obviously the ones that I'm working with are, are absolutely wanting to create this change. But I can't go into an organization and ask the teams to change knowing the CEO and the board are refusing. And some decisions are challenging. It might be, and this is a really honest conversation I have at the beginning with the CEO. It might be that they're not right for that role. A lot of CEOs have inherited organizations. It's not theirs. It's not the same as being an entrepreneur.

Maryanne Katsidis [00:33:09]:

As an entrepreneur, this is our body of work, is part of us. You know, it is our vision and our mission. But when you're placed as a CEO, sometimes more often than not, those choices to accept those job roles have been from an ego based decision. So might be about the money, it might be about the status, or both. It might be, you know, something else, you know, coming from the ego rather than from a place of truth. So it's not their passion, it's not their, it's not their life force to fulfill this legacy. And so my work at the beginning, and this is why I start with the CEO first, is what, what is it that you want to transform here? What legacy are you committed to fulfilling? How can we best communicate this to the organization? But how can you embody this so it becomes undeniable? How do you embody legacy? So it is so obvious to your staff that you are so in the zone with it, you are so aligned to it that they know integrity is your value. That's where the, where the baseline is, so that everyone else underneath that knows they have to mimic that as well.

Maryanne Katsidis [00:34:23]:

And if they don't, it might mean that they have to move on. And that's where some more challenging conversations have to happen. Because it might be that there are people who've witnessed too much who absolutely refuse to change, even when you create safety. So it might mean encouraging people to move on. But if you're going to recalibrate a whole organization, that's what you know, that's where some of the truth is. That's what needs to happen. But absolutely, the foundation is with the scene.

Lisa Virtue [00:34:54]:

Yes. And moving on. Absolutely. Should happen for people when it's the right time and place. And I also want to say that as you're feeling it too, even down under the opposite side of the planet from me, we are feeling as a collective in humanity. I believe everyone I talk to has the same sense that there is a big shift, it's a big shift going on. Technology has boomed in the last century, it's been insane. It's so many changes.

Lisa Virtue [00:35:21]:

And there is something else at the core. And like you were saying earlier, whatever you believe in universe, energy, God, figure, whatever it is, there is this human experience that we're all a part of. And there has been so much short sighted decision making in the past, however many years. Right. Very recently too, that I believe wholeheartedly that the CEOs, the leaders, the people that are in a place of impact and helping lead others and create that vision to get people to follow in their work. The ones that show up with their heart, the ones that show up with that energy, that they've done the work on themselves, they are the ones that are going to come out of it successfully. They're going to be the ones that have that legacy like you're talking about and we'll all be better off for it. So I'm glad we're having this conversation right now because I feel like we're just at this precipice of gosh, people are exposing it more and more, what does not work and what is not humane, what is not right for humanity.

Lisa Virtue [00:36:21]:

And I'm so glad they are. And it takes a lot of work, even for those of us that are passionate about it, want to, want to bring that humanity out. It takes work for all of us because we've all been stuck in that very short sighted culture and we've been stuck as a human race driving the profits and driving all these things when in reality that's not what matters at the end of the day.

Maryanne Katsidis [00:36:43]:

Absolutely. And you know, again, you know, when I'm, when I start this work, it's an, it's an honest conversation that I have where I say it might be that, you know, after a few months, you know, both of us realize you, you may not be the right CEO for this organization, that that may happen. And I, I make that known. So it's out there. So that is not a surprise, you know, especially for CEOs who are holding so much and they're, they're guarded and feeling very like they need to protect themselves a lot. Surprise elements are not great that just, that just perpetuates the guardedness. So being open and transparent about what the process looks like and what they may experience and how they're going to be supported is really important. But that is definitely a part of it.

Maryanne Katsidis [00:37:38]:

They. Sometimes it's an opportunity to fall back in love with the organization. Other times it's, I actually don't want to do this, and that's okay as well. But the, the, the, the bracing, the wanting to perform, you know, as high, you know, high achievers and leaders, we get really good at performing. And again, that's the mask of, I'm fine, everything's fine, I'm a really strong. Especially for men, they feel like they have to hold this energy of being really strong and tough, but underneath they are unraveling. And so some of the clients that I work with are in a quite a fragile state underneath. But you would never know that on the outside unless you are paying attention, unless you could intuitively feel where it is.

Maryanne Katsidis [00:38:30]:

Sometimes even their families don't know that they're in that state. But again, when you look at suicide rates and especially with men, this is, this is, again, this is a cultural thing where we're just not wanting to share and open and be vulnerable. But that's why this work is private and confidential and very intimate, because they need a space where they can just let go, where they can surrender, where they know there is no judgment. You know, it's warts and all over there. Then they can start to rebuild on a much stronger, solid foundation. And then when they, when they are starting to transform in that way, what happens is again, the senior, their, their close executive team or their senior leaders start to notice something. They don't know what is happening with the CEO, so you start to see them kind of ping something, something is going on. They're not responding like they normally do.

Maryanne Katsidis [00:39:30]:

Wow. That was more gentle. Wow. He wanted to go a bit deeper with me in that conversation. That's a bit weird. They start to notice the change and then once we've done enough work and then they, you know, introduce me fully into the organization. I can talk to the work that the CEO has done, and they've already seen it without even knowing what's been happening. They've already witnessed the transformation in real time.

Maryanne Katsidis [00:39:54]:

So that builds trust. Then, and then we start working together. And then, you know, on and on and on with, with the, with the rest of the organization. But that, that transformation needs to be without the bells and the whistles. It can't be. Another look at all the work that I'm doing. It needs to be embodied, you know, as a, as a society. If you are not in feel and you're not embodied in your truth, 2026 is going to be an initiation that is going to be incredibly challenging.

Maryanne Katsidis [00:40:27]:

Incredibly challenging. And that's my, that's my advice. Go willingly with it. Be curious about yourself. Be curious about where you are not holding yourself accountable, where you're self abandoning, where you're not willing to feel uncomfortable in any of your experiences. And again, if you've had trauma of any kind of, you're definitely going to be not wanting to feel, you're going to want to fix it and move on quickly. You're going to want to skip over it, but don't. Because the magic is in being present with it.

Maryanne Katsidis [00:41:04]:

And what it does is it dialutes and dissolves when you stand still. And that is a challenging thing to do. But with the right person facilitating it doesn't have to be.

Lisa Virtue [00:41:17]:

And it's what the, the most profound humans that we look to is what they do. Right. They get vulnerable, they work on themselves. You think about the Dalai Lama, for goodness sakes, that's all they do all day. They work on those aspects of their true raw humanity. Yeah. I also agree that 2026, there's a big shift and moving forward in that it is really around. Be human, Be human.

Lisa Virtue [00:41:46]:

Embrace the fact that you're human. You're not one of those robots that you're probably trying to employ. And that's good thing because humans have to manage the robots. Let's be real, right? We're not getting rid of humans. We're using AI and tools to help humans at the end of the day. And a lot of people are struggling to see that pathway. But I do, I believe that that's where it will go. So the best leaders are going to be the ones doing the work.

Maryanne Katsidis [00:42:12]:

Absolutely. And even more so because of AI. So the more technology changes and sort of becomes even more prominent in our life, it becomes even more important for us to be human, to be in our humanness, to let people see all of the parts, all of the colors of ourselves. And you know, we're recording at Christmas time and we've just seen the, everyone's, you know, on the bandwagon of doing the AI Christmas photo. I, I feel, I actually feel physically sick when I see them. I feel so sad that people think that that's a better version of who they are. And I get, you know, it's all fun and it's a gimmick And I get that, like, I'm not, you know, I'm not the fun police. You know, it's not that, but it is.

Maryanne Katsidis [00:43:02]:

I don't see what is fun about it. I see the true essence of people. I see who they are underneath the words, underneath, you know, the way that they present themselves. I can feel who they are. And so then when some of them are acting in this way, I feel sad. I feel sad because that doesn't talk to even a remote fraction of their truth. And AI. I'm not against AI.

Maryanne Katsidis [00:43:28]:

I love AI. I get it to spell correct and to provide me with some great ways to create systems on the back end. And there's some really great ways to use it, but it is pulling us away from our connection with each other. And this is going to be harder. The more you rely on hiding behind all these things, the worse it's going to be. Because AI can make you sound really smart. It is. It can make you sound so clever, too clever even.

Maryanne Katsidis [00:43:58]:

But when you meet somebody and they've got on their website and they've been posting on social media, one way of speaking, and then you meet them and that's not the language, they can't talk to that. And they definitely can't back up what they have said. And it's not positioned. You are breaking trust with a person you're interacting with and that. That's creating karmic debt. And that's a whole other conversation that's probably a podcast in and of itself. You're breaking integrity with yourself and with the other person and therefore trust. So then the foundation of your connection is inevitably going to unravel.

Lisa Virtue [00:44:33]:

Yep. And we're seeing that in marketing, too. And all the brands that are heavily using AI, people just scroll past. Same with the holiday photos, like, yeah, it's one of those things that's like, oh, this caught my eye. Because it's different and that lasts for what, 10 seconds? And then we move on. But when you have a human on the other end of whatever it is that you're engaging with, that's real and authentic.

Maryanne Katsidis [00:44:57]:

Oof.

Lisa Virtue [00:44:57]:

That's why we lean into those human stories on movies and why we want to connect with people in person. And yeah, that's not going away.

Maryanne Katsidis [00:45:06]:

No, it's not going away. And you don't know who's watching or who's interacting with you. The more you're you, the more obvious it's going to be if you're for them. And as entrepreneurs, you know, I. If you've Got perfectionist tendency. Reforming perfectionist it is. You want it all to sound great, you want to sound clever, you want to position yourself as, you know, an expert expert, and that's great, but you need to be the embodiment of this. And so with the work, with the CEOs, I know how to help them fundamentally this way, because I'm doing that work on myself every single day.

Maryanne Katsidis [00:45:51]:

Every day, I am holding my feet to the fire. I'm facing all of the aspects, all of the areas where I feel uncomfortable. And I've had people reach out to me and say, whatever you're doing. Well, like, whatever's going on for you, like, I'm here for that. Like, I. Like it's. It's working. Like, there seems to be something like a real glow to you lately.

Maryanne Katsidis [00:46:12]:

And I think, yeah, well, you should see what is happening. You know, yesterday I was in a fetal position, wondering what's it all for? And today you're feeling, you know, joy and vibrant. Yeah. But those cycles happen faster, and when you know how to move yourself through it. And this is what I do with the CEOs, I teach them how to stay in that momentum and provide them with support at the beginning when it feels incredibly challenging to be still. Yeah, it's. It's. I love this work.

Maryanne Katsidis [00:46:42]:

And I feel like when I. When I was just a kinesiologist, I was doing that for eight and a half years when I was a therapist. In that way, I really learned a lot about the way men and women hold emotion and how they process. And so that. That is so interesting in and of itself. As women, our brain is like a ball of wires. Everything is connected to everything else. But with men, it's a very black and white.

Maryanne Katsidis [00:47:12]:

Once they understand a concept, they can move through things very, very quickly. It's actually really annoying as a female to witness it.

Lisa Virtue [00:47:19]:

It's true.

Maryanne Katsidis [00:47:20]:

Like, once they've got it, that's it. And so what might take a woman 12 months to work through, a man might be able to work through in just so. So. But regardless of how long it takes, I feel like everyone needs to know they're worth it. And if not being with you, if not facing you, what else are we doing on this circle, on this globe, in these. In these meat suits that we're in? What. What's the point then?

Lisa Virtue [00:47:45]:

Absolutely. Yep. Be human, everybody.

Maryanne Katsidis [00:47:48]:

Yeah.

Lisa Virtue [00:47:49]:

Um. I love it. So, Marianne, you have a gift for the audience, the sovereign leadership blueprint. So we will have that on the website heartsetstudio.com podcast in the show notes that people can go snag that. Tell me more about how people can get a hold of you. If what you're saying is resonating and they want to talk to you, how can they do that?

Maryanne Katsidis [00:48:07]:

Yeah. So the Sovereign Leadership Blueprint is very much a grounded and practical guide designed to help leaders. It is a guide to help you shift from pressure driven control into more coherent leadership. It'll help you regulate the internal load that you're carrying. It'll encourage you to use your intuition. And it is a blueprint that's not about fixing. And I kind of just want to say this isn't about fixing your behavior. It's about recalibrating you as a leader.

Maryanne Katsidis [00:48:39]:

And so you can be an entrepreneur, you can be a CEO, it doesn't matter. This is a good first step, but it's just a guide. And any of the deeper work you can find on my website, which is maryannekatsidis.com and I also have a podcast. Lisa's coming on my podcast too. That's called Heart LED Change Makers. So you can hear some of the other inspired Heart LED Change makers as well. If you're looking for some extra inspiration, find me on Instagram. But my website is probably a good place to start.

Lisa Virtue [00:49:09]:

Perfect. Thank you so much, Maryanne, for your time today. I wish we could keep talking, but we both need to go. So I'm excited to come on your podcast too. I can't wait. Thank you again for the gift, for the audience and for all of your insights. There is hope, everybody.

Maryanne Katsidis [00:49:25]:

Absolutely. And thank you so much for having me, Lisa.