Lisa Virtue [00:00:02]:

Debra, welcome. Thank you so much for coming to the podcast today. I am eager to get curious with you.

Debra Clary [00:00:09]:

Thank you for having me, Lisa.

Lisa Virtue [00:00:11]:

So, as before we get started and dive into that, I'm sure the audience is curious about your background. So if you would like to share a little bit about yourself and how you came to do this work and even leading into the book, the Curiosity Curve, that would be fabulous.

Debra Clary [00:00:26]:

All right, well, let's get into it. So I have a little bit of an unusual start to my career in the sense that right out of business school, I went to interview at Frito Lay, and I thought I was going to be a manager. I was so pumped. My first professional job, I had a suit and a little bow tie, and they did offer me a job, but it was not the manager job. It was a route driver. So my first job was a teamster, a Frito Lay route driver in the city of Detroit. And I remember as I was driving home, after I accepted the role, I just said, let's just make this happen. Like, how can I be the best route driver ever? It never entered into my mind that I would be doing that, but it became my classroom.

Debra Clary [00:01:17]:

That truck. It's where I learned how to manage a P and L, how to manage the operations, and how to build relationships with backdoor receivers and store managers. And it really did become my classroom, more so than anything I learned in business school. So I was glad that I did it. And then I spent the next decade at Frito Lay in various sales, marketing, and operating type roles. And then I was recruited away by Coca Cola. And then I spent a decade at Coca Cola, first in the Philadelphia area, then I moved to Atlanta and managed a global account. So it was really cool getting that international experience and understanding how business is different around the world.

Debra Clary [00:02:00]:

And then, I'm telling you, I went to the hard stuff. I went to Jack Daniels, and I was their VP of strategy in their wine division. At that point, they had a wine division. So it was torture. I had to spend all this time in Napa Valley understanding wine, talking to vintners. But it was an amazing experience understanding a different industry, even though it was consumer goods. It was really understanding, like, the passion behind how products are made and how they're grown. It was a really cool experience.

Debra Clary [00:02:34]:

And while I was there, I got wildly interested in human behavior and why were some leaders amazing and others not so amazing? So I was so serious about it that I went back to get my doctorate in leader development in Org design from George Washington University. And after I Graduated, I went to work for Humana, it's a hundred billion dollar health care company. And I led the Leadership Institute. And so I did that for a couple of decades actually. And it was one day I was sitting next to my CEO in the boardroom and he turned to me and he said, do you think curiosity can be learned or is it innate? I'm like, I don't know, I've never thought about that. So I said, I'm going to go do some research for you. Well, in the meantime, I was just heading out to go on a holiday to Italy, and I was on a train from Rome to Florence and just taking in this lovely, beautiful view of the scenery. And I was sitting next to an Italian man and he says to me, are you American? I say, yes, I am American.

Debra Clary [00:03:43]:

And he says, oh, I have the best American joke. What do you get when you ask an American a question, an answer? And he thought it was so funny, he laughed. And I was a gracious American. So I nodded. But like, I didn't get it. But while I spent time in Florence, I began to observe Europeans and they did have different conversations than Americans. It was a conversation. It wasn't a back and forth, like ping pong game, if you will.

Debra Clary [00:04:16]:

And then I flew home and that week Gallup released their engagement report and engagement measures, the level of engagement in organization. In the history of measuring engagement, they had never seen it that low. And it was in that moment I began to think about, could curiosity be the missing piece? And I had this hypothesis that that's what was missing in organizations. So I commissioned a group of researchers to go study the relatedness between leadership, performance and curiosity. And three months later they came back and said, how'd you know? Like three decades navigating complex systems. So that's what started me on this journey of going deeper and understanding how curiosity could really save organizations. How or how performance by using curiosity could really drive that. So that's the essence of my beginning and where I am today in regards to just speaking and coaching around curiosity.

Lisa Virtue [00:05:25]:

Love all of everything. A few free reactions for me. One is new grads have such a hard time swallowing a humble pill. So your journey's so inspiring, especially right now with so many job disruptions in the workforce at that level. So I think there's a lot of people that maybe are aspiring that can hear your message and get a little hope that gotta start somewhere, right?

Debra Clary [00:05:52]:

Yes, yes.

Lisa Virtue [00:05:54]:

Yeah, very similar background is right. You know, you put the work in and then you learn so much. It's so true.

Debra Clary [00:06:02]:

Yes.

Lisa Virtue [00:06:03]:

Okay, so curiosity didn't kill the cat in the way we think it did, based off the old. The old phrase curiosity kills the cat. Can you tell us what that phrase actually says? There's a longer phrase you shared with me, which I thought was fascinating.

Debra Clary [00:06:21]:

Yeah. So when I was writing the book, the editor read in the book I wrote, curiosity killed the cat. And she said, I need you to cite that. And I go, my mother. So, no, no, no. Like, really cite it. And I go, yeah, Ms. Erickson, she goes, no, no, I need you to cite it or we're gonna have to take it out of the book.

Debra Clary [00:06:42]:

So I was irritated, but I go, okay, I'm gonna go look this thing up. And to my surprise and delight, I found out that curiosity killed the cat is attributed to William Shakespeare in 1589. But guess what? That's only the beginning of the sentence. The full sentence written by Shakespeare is, curiosity killed the cat, comma. But satisfaction brought it back. Now, what a world we would live in if we all knew the full sentences. Would we take more risks? Would we take more? Would we be more adventurous if we hadn't had that planted in our head that curiosity is dangerous.

Lisa Virtue [00:07:27]:

Yes. And so many divides we know socially here in the US Which. The quote of the Italian. I've spent time in Europe, too, and have such fond memories and friendships. But even strangers that I would come across, oh, they love to get into conversation. And it was never, never personal. But as an American, it could feel personal. I remember that sensation.

Lisa Virtue [00:07:51]:

Right. And having to realize, like, oh, no, they really want to know what I'm thinking deep down. And there was such beauty to that.

Debra Clary [00:08:01]:

Without judgment, without biased. I was amazed that they would talk about politics and religion and money, but there was no attachment to the answer or to you as a person. It was, this is an interesting conversation. And then they would leave it at that. And it's just not so here in North America.

Lisa Virtue [00:08:24]:

Yeah. It makes me sad when I get into conversation with people who I think are curious, and then they shut. Shut off ideas that feel on a different side of the aisle or feel like they shouldn't entertain the notion. Right. It feels like they are not allowed to go there because there's something wrong with going into that curiosity.

Debra Clary [00:08:48]:

I think we are taught that we need to be polite and respectful, and that means not asking thorny questions or not going deeper. Somehow. We think we're being kind. If we don't go deeper, it's kind not to ask that next layer of a question. And I do think it stunts our relationships.

Lisa Virtue [00:09:12]:

Absolutely. As a coach, and I know you doing all of your work too, it is so freeing being able to dive deep with people and have them want that. I think I see such a craving for it where people are like, I want to be heard. I want to be understood, and I do want to understand others. But a lot of times we, to your point, just didn't have the upbringing, the skill set, the tools that we need to make it happen. Right. Yes.

Debra Clary [00:09:39]:

I have a coaching client. He's a CFO of a very large organization, and I was with him last week. And at the end of the session, I always ask, are you getting what you need from these coaching sessions? Are we meet. Am I meeting your needs? What would you like more different of? Right. And so we. He went through that, and then he said to me, what do you need more or different from me as the client? Well, which I've never had anyone ask me that question. And I said, well, in the beginning of our conversation, I asked you a feeling question, and you answered it in an objective way. And I asked it two more times.

Debra Clary [00:10:19]:

I asked you three times a feeling question. And then I moved on. And he goes, wow, I didn't realize that in the sense that he was open to how do. How do I get better? And I'm like, here's what I experienced. And I said, for us to go deeper in building this relationship, I need to know how you feel.

Lisa Virtue [00:10:42]:

That's beautiful. Such self awareness on his part. Once he asked the question, all he did was ask you what seemed like a simple question.

Debra Clary [00:10:52]:

Yes. Yes. And typically in my experience is when you ask somebody, what could I do better or different? Oh, nothing. You're. Oh, you're perfect all the time. And I like, I'm. No, I'm not. I'm.

Debra Clary [00:11:05]:

I'm dating someone. And I asked him once, we were doing something for the weekend, I said, what do you need more or different for me over this weekend? And he's like, nothing. Like, you're great. And I said, well, can I give you what I need more and different from you? He's like, well, okay, that's great.

Lisa Virtue [00:11:26]:

Yeah, that's that nicety that we are raised with, for sure.

Debra Clary [00:11:31]:

Yeah. And there's. There's a lot of good things about being kind and nice, but I think we need to reshape how we. How we use those words. And is it really being kind and nice if we don't go deeper in understanding ourselves and others?

Lisa Virtue [00:11:49]:

I completely agree. And I. As we shift into Talking about leadership in the workplace, I think this is a really good segue to, again, I hear it all the time from people, oh, they don't hear me, they don't see me. They're not listening. Or there is a lack of curiosity. That because it's so transactional. Right. Versus transformational leadership, things can be so transactional on a daily basis because you got work to do.

Lisa Virtue [00:12:15]:

So when you see this in organizations and the research you've done, what happens when certainty becomes more valued than curiosity?

Debra Clary [00:12:26]:

Yes. Well, what, you know, what certainty does is narrows curiosity. Certainty closes down conversations. And as a leader, I think our chief role is to expand conversations to help people. We want people to feel seen and heard. And in our research, we found that the. This was a thousand executives that we interviewed. And we found, and they did.

Debra Clary [00:12:55]:

The assessment is that the more confident they became, meaning that they were more experts in their roles, which is typically how you get promoted. You become an expert, you do well, you get promoted. Those are the individuals that had the least amount of curiosity. So we say that certainty and curiosity just cannot coexist in the sense of if you're really wanting to drive performance, then curiosity is the elixir to make that happen. We, in addition to doing the quantitative work, we did qualitative studies, and we brought together a group of millennials, because millennials are the least engaged right now. Now, why this is a problem is, one is productivity. But two, these are the people that we would be developing to go into senior roles in the next decade. So they're signaling to us we're not interested.

Debra Clary [00:13:48]:

So we brought them together and we asked, what's the source of your disengagement? Like, what's going on? And they said, my leader doesn't know me and doesn't care to know me. And we said, say more about that. Like, they don't know you run marathons or you have a dog. This. No, they don't know what I can bring to the table to solve a problem. I'm closest to the problem, and I'm least consulted. In a typical scenario, I have, we organization has a problem, the problem is put on the table. The employee looks at the problem, the manager leader looks at the problem, and then the leader solves it and sends them on their way.

Debra Clary [00:14:26]:

Because the leader has been taught that to be the best leader, we have to have all the answers. And that's just not true today. And so if we can get leaders to understand that by asking questions and you can really expand performance.

Lisa Virtue [00:14:47]:

Yes, this is kind of Change Management 101 too, isn't it? Understanding and relating to each individual and what their needs are in order to help move them. And so getting curious and in the room instead of. I have the answer. Okay, team. My strength as a leader is to pull you all together to find an answer. My strength is not to have the answer.

Debra Clary [00:15:12]:

Yes. As I coach executives and leaders, I say, then the best thing you can say when somebody asks you a question is, I don't know, let's explore. I mean, I might have some ideas, but I want to. Let's have a conversation. Let's have a conversation. And that's where the real beauty of leadership comes into play. Leadership is about the long game, not the short game. The short game is I'm going to give you the answers and you go along your way.

Debra Clary [00:15:45]:

Well, we know that's not working with disengagement being as high as it is, that we can shift that and play the long game. By developing that individual's critical thinking, you're building their confidence by you're asking their opinion. And what I hear from some leaders is, well, that takes a long time.

Lisa Virtue [00:16:06]:

All right, good job.

Debra Clary [00:16:08]:

It's the sense of, first off, I say, it might feel like that, but sometimes you have to go slow to go fast. And sometimes if you take an extra five or six minutes to ask questions, you're going to leapfrog productivity. And I say, just try it. Just try it.

Lisa Virtue [00:16:27]:

Yeah. Be like, prove me wrong.

Debra Clary [00:16:31]:

Yes.

Lisa Virtue [00:16:32]:

I call it the slingshot effect. Right. Pull back and slow down so that you can propel forward and your team will come with you.

Debra Clary [00:16:39]:

Yes. I love that.

Lisa Virtue [00:16:42]:

So for leaders in workplace, are you finding that some of them. Okay, let me back up before I ask this question. One thing that this brought up for me was thinking around how leaders still need to make the decision, tough decisions. Right. This is part of the job, part of the reason you get that paycheck. There is risk involved because you are the one, the end of the day, making tough decisions, typically.

Debra Clary [00:17:08]:

Right.

Lisa Virtue [00:17:09]:

And you don't have to be the one to come up with all those decisions and solutions. That's why you have a team. Right. We accelerate decision making with the team. Are you seeing that there is a feeling of threat that some leaders are having? Where, like, where's this resistance coming from? I guess is my question. Where are they being very. Besides, we've been kind of taught this and molded. Where's that feeling of resistance to the advice of, hey, let's go get curious?

Debra Clary [00:17:41]:

Yeah. I mean, one is biological Our brains are wired for efficiency. You know, our brains are steeped in, you know, ancient biology in the sense of we're an operating system and I've got to keep you safe and you have to survive. You know, unbeknownst to us, this is what's running our background and our operating system of that. And, and when we give an answer, it feels like leadership, man, look at me, I just gave an answer, right? And the. So the sense of we have to fight against our brain, knowing that our brain is about certainty, it's not about curiosity. So you have to start one with this mindset of, I know my brain is trying to protect me, but right now it's not the best way to operate in terms of really driving belonging and a diversity of perspective so we get to the right place. So understanding your brain is working against you.

Debra Clary [00:18:42]:

It doesn't wake up every day and say, woohoo, let's be curious. It wakes up every day and say, how are we going to be efficient? How am I going to save energy all day long? So just know that you, you have to set the intention and it's thinking about when you're bringing your group together is how do I make sure there's space for questions, how do I make sure on the agenda that there's a discussion period and that I'm behaving in a way that's inviting questions or inviting ways to poke, you know, poke holes at the status quo. How could we do it differently?

Lisa Virtue [00:19:18]:

So this is so in line with checking with your HEARTset, right? There's the mindset and mindfulness that we have so much information out there about, and getting yourself kind of composed mostly for yourself, so that you feel confident and you show up mostly for yourself. And HEARTset is all about like you just described. That was great. When I go into this meeting, my intention is not about me, it's about the room and it's about the people that I'm working with. And that's that heart, like bringing your heart into the room. So that aligns so beautifully with what we're doing at Heartset Studio. And it made me also think about when a leader has an agenda. A lot of times we're reacting, right? I'm thinking about these examples in my past as a leader too, where maybe I was even showing up, trying to engage a staff member.

Lisa Virtue [00:20:10]:

They're like, why are we having this? Like, what is the transaction? Right. They also want to have that clarity. And so that can trip us up as leaders because then it kind of goes, oh, okay, well, they want me to give an answer, and they want me to be certain and clear. And instead of taking that step back, like the Italian taking the step back and going, ooh, let's just sit in this and talk about it a little bit more and take our time. And I'm going to ask you some questions versus hey, boss, what do you need me to do?

Debra Clary [00:20:42]:

Absolutely. And it's one of sharing your intentions. So, like, don't just show up tomorrow and start acting differently, because people might experience that as they're interrogating me. It's one of really trying to be intentional about opening space for questions or whatever language you would use. So you're telegraphing to your team that I want to be different because I think we can get better performance, better outcomes together as a team. So I'm going to experiment with this. So just. Just let them know where you'd like to take the team.

Debra Clary [00:21:16]:

You're trying to create a culture of curiosity because we know it drives performance and belonging.

Lisa Virtue [00:21:24]:

Such a good point. It doesn't. You're not in stealth mode with all of these things. Right, right.

Debra Clary [00:21:31]:

And I've had people ask me, well, what about an attorney? You know, you're. You're. You're, you know, cross examining a witness. I said, that's completely different. Right. Because attorneys are taught you don't ask a question you don't have an answer to.

Lisa Virtue [00:21:46]:

Yes.

Debra Clary [00:21:47]:

Right. And so it's a whole different thing. That's a different arena. That's not work. We're really talking about a real deep mindset or HEARTset about. I want to understand this person. I want to understand where they're coming from. I might be missing something.

Debra Clary [00:22:05]:

I might have blind spots. For sure, I have blind spots. And maybe together we can figure those out.

Lisa Virtue [00:22:11]:

Yeah. Let them surprise you. Right? Love it.

Debra Clary [00:22:14]:

Love that.

Lisa Virtue [00:22:14]:

I love that.

Debra Clary [00:22:15]:

Let them surprise me. Yeah.

Lisa Virtue [00:22:18]:

Okay. So you worked from literally in the truck on the route all the way up to the boardroom.

Debra Clary [00:22:26]:

Yes.

Lisa Virtue [00:22:26]:

How did curiosity help you in your experience?

Debra Clary [00:22:31]:

Yeah, I think that it. I didn't know the words to put behind it until I started doing my own research. But this sense, I would say things like when I was driving home after I got the job to be the teamster is. I'm like, what's the worst that could happen? I mean, that's a question. What's the worst that could happen? Well, you might quit in a couple of days. Like, okay, if I quit, what does that mean? Well, it means you're going to be looking for another Job. So this sense of always kind of asking myself questions. And then when you.

Debra Clary [00:23:01]:

When I would. When I got onto the route truck, I go, oh, I can do this. I'm not going to fail at this. Then I said, how can I be the best route driver they've ever seen? Right. So now it became a game for myself of how. How do I get off a route truck? Well, the only way to get off a route truck was to get your sales up. And, and so, you know, beginning to just always ask myself questions of what if or how about and go and then going from there.

Lisa Virtue [00:23:30]:

So you were curious about yourself first. It sounds like, yes. That's great. That also fits right into HEARTset H. Being. Be human, understand yourself, where you're coming from, your motivations, how you show up in the room and you're. We were also curious about the work. And so you didn't just hear, here's what you're doing, here's the transaction of the day that you need to do.

Lisa Virtue [00:23:54]:

You heard, and if you want to go this direction with your career, here's the steps to take it.

Debra Clary [00:24:00]:

Yes, yes, yes. I was going to have this mindset. If somebody else is doing it, I can do it too. You know what I'm saying? Like, I'm not saying I could be a physicist or, you know, rocket scientist, but I would look at something that was interesting to me and I'm like, wow, I just have to learn what they're doing and try to do it in my own way.

Lisa Virtue [00:24:21]:

So much power to that. This is why mentorship is so powerful, too. Just seeing someone else's story. And then, like you said, not emulating that exactly, but taking bits and pieces that apply to you and your journey.

Debra Clary [00:24:33]:

Yes,

Lisa Virtue [00:24:35]:

Love it. Okay, so I think we've covered this a lot, but I did have one more question for you about relationships. And so this idea of relating to others, what does curiosity unlock that leadership training often misses? Because I know you've done done both now. Right. So there's trainings that we put our leaders through and development courses. And then there's this element of like, relating individually to human to human and connection.

Debra Clary [00:25:05]:

Okay. I've not thought of it in that way, so I'm going to think and speak at the same time. But I love it. I love it in the sense of, you know, when we are developing leaders, first there is the acumen, right. So there's the, the skills that they need to do their job. And then on the other side, it's the, it's the behaviors that they need. So then we teach, you know, emotional intelligence, how to create a, you know, psychological safety and those kind of things. So to me, it's.

Debra Clary [00:25:38]:

You need curiosity for both sides of those. You have to be curious to build your skill set, the hard skill set, if you will, how to become an accountant, how to a medical doctor. Right. And then you also need curiosity to say, what. What's my current behavior and what's the new behavior that I want to try on? And how does, how does that fit? So it. In terms of developing leaders, I think that it's the foundational block of either acumen or behavior.

Lisa Virtue [00:26:08]:

I love it. And practicing maybe too is in there. That's what I see a lot. This why coaching has taken off. Right. A neutral place, unbiased, where you can practice and really dig deep into some of the things you have done the learning on.

Debra Clary [00:26:22]:

Yes. Yes.

Lisa Virtue [00:26:24]:

Yeah. Love it. Okay. Any other stories you wanted to share or tips for leaders as they're thinking more about am I curious? How do I show up in a better way?

Debra Clary [00:26:35]:

Yes. So what we learned in our, in our research are a couple different things. And one is that curiosity is not a trait, it's a state. Meaning if you are around other people, your curiosity level is going to go up as well. And, you know, to that point, we learned that a leader's level of curiosity dictates the team's level of curiosity. Right. So curiosity is a. Is a state, not a trait, and curiosity is contagious.

Debra Clary [00:27:05]:

And here's the best part. Curiosity can be learned.

Lisa Virtue [00:27:13]:

Love it. Do you have an example of maybe someone that you've seen do this, where they learned curiosity?

Debra Clary [00:27:20]:

Yeah, I think that the, the leaders that I work with is they, they think that curiosity is a luxury. It's. It's a nice to have one day when I get a moment, I'm going to do these things. But the reality is, is that, I mean, when curiosity is brought into the workplace and that you begin to practice asking questions and genuinely wanting to hear the answer, it's amazing of the possibilities that open up for performance, but also for culture.

Lisa Virtue [00:27:56]:

Right. And then I can just see how it trickles down. I've seen this in my own experience too, where you're demonstrating, asking questions, having the time to have conversation, setting your intention, and then others all of a sudden start setting their intention. Right. I've seen that trickle effect where the leader's saying, here's what I'd like to try. And then as people start to see that it's authentic, then they go, oh, here's what I would like to try or here's how I'm showing up.

Debra Clary [00:28:25]:

Yes. And one of the other counsels I give is when you're taking on a new team. And I would ask the each team member individually in private one, how do you like to be led? How do you like to be led? And then as a leader, you don't treat everybody the same. You treat the individual the way that they want to be led. I'll give you an example. I did this with a new team. I took over and one individual said I would really enjoy it if we, we do a monthly check in to speed on what's happening. If I have an issue or something you need to be aware of, I'm going to you great.

Debra Clary [00:29:05]:

Had another individual. Oh, I love if we could talk every week. And I want to bring you up to all the projects I'm working. I want to get your input. Now you think about it. If I have overlaid that for everybody that we have to meet weekly, that's got to look like this. I mean I wouldn't have been getting their best work. And as long as they were getting their work done and we trusted each other, it was, it was amazing.

Lisa Virtue [00:29:27]:

Open conversation. Yep. I don't know why that's so hard. There's so many people. Just name it. Right. Say it out loud.

Debra Clary [00:29:37]:

Yes. Well, the. In my experience what I see is that the leaders are under so much pressure. They're they. And it's about getting results fast. And in their mind how do I get results fast is I tell you what to do. Yeah. That's probably speed, but it's not efficiency.

Lisa Virtue [00:30:01]:

Right. And we know speed can take you down a path that it's hard to get back from if you're going too fast.

Debra Clary [00:30:10]:

Yes. Yeah.

Lisa Virtue [00:30:13]:

Love it. I was going to react to that. Now I can't remember what I was going to say. Let me get pause for a second, see if it comes back to me. The. So pressure. Yeah. Leaders under pressure.

Lisa Virtue [00:30:27]:

Absolutely. One of my taglines is crush goals without crushing souls, including your own. I love that because we, we can, we can do that. And it does take a lot of intentionality and a lot of work. And so I know that your book is one place people can start to kind of dive into this concept and really do some self assessment. Tell the audience how they can get a hold of you where, where they can find your book. All of that please.

Debra Clary [00:30:56]:

Yes. Thank you, Lisa. So you can find me and my work on my website, which is Debra D E B r a clary clar y.com debra clary.com and in addition to that, you can find me on linked under Dr. Debra Clary and the book can be found on Amazon. It's called the Curiosity Curve.

Lisa Virtue [00:31:18]:

Love it. We'll definitely have all that in the show notes. And thank you so much for being here. I am really excited for people to continue to listen to your message and get more curious because I don't want to be alone

Debra Clary [00:31:32]:

for sure.

Lisa Virtue [00:31:33]:

Thank you so much.

Debra Clary [00:31:35]:

Thank you. Lisa.